The Parables And Compassion – Dialogos Studies

Perhaps he is speaking “ex cathedra”?

I did not write this… Herb did.
“THE PARABLES AND COMPASSION

by Rev. Norman Prenger

These five parables clearly teach that the church needs to have compassion and, consequently that the church needs to accept the practice of same-sex marriages. They will each be treated separately below. These five parables contain more scriptural evidence supporting the practice of same-sex marriage than the combined teaching of Leviticus 18 and 20, Romans 1, I Corinthians 6:9-10 and I Timothy 1:8-11 which have been taken to prohibit same-sex marriage.

Anyone who cannot comprehend that these parables are conclusive evidence supporting same-sex marriage is an example of Christ’s statement that He spoke in parables because those who have the Spirit will understand, and those who do not understand do not, “. . . . because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” (Matthew 13:13) Anyone who does not comprehend this is stuck in legalism and self-righteousness.”

You are correct, Norm. I put together these first two paragraphs but, they contain the wording that you communicated to me. See further responses in the other comments.

Once again, you are missing the point. Delete what you have admittedly manipulated and posted without my permission.
Thank you. I don’t disagree with the two phrases I used. They are correct and scriptural. But your manipulation of the argument is why I should never have trusted you.

The parables do not “legitimize homosexual acts”… they simply demonstrate that compassion is the the hallmark of truly moral life in Christ. All sexually outside of marriage is forbidden unless it is practiced in the bonds of marriage. Inviting lonely homosexuals to enjoy marriage seems like a compassionate thing to do, don’t you think?
Besides… in the coming kingdom, marriage and child bearing will be a think of the past, as Our Lord showed us.

And you are missing the point of course in your rush to hide beneath Levitical sexual codes. I have already discussed with Herb how homosexual acts, like all sexual acts outside of marriage, are forbidden. But compassion is what invites homosexuals to express their sexuality in the protection of a marriage vow, and to practice fidelity and loyalty and compassion in the love that binds two in one .

If forbidding same-sex marriage is an error in that it clings to Levitical sexual codes, then we need to clearly establish that through good sound exegesis. Only by addressing that directly, head on, are we going to make progress here.

Pastor Prenger tells us how we must react to his extrapolated application of these parables to avoid being labeled “stuck in legalism and self-righteousness.” Such a blanket conclusion seems unsupported by sound reasoning or winsome persuasion.

I did not write this… Herb did. “THE PARABLES AND COMPASSION by Rev. Norman Prenger These five parables clearly teach that the church needs to have compassion and, consequently that the church needs to accept the practice of same-sex marriages. They will each be treated separately below. These five parables contain more scriptural evidence supporting the practice of same-sex marriage than the combined teaching of Leviticus 18 and 20, Romans 1, I Corinthians 6:9-10 and I Timothy 1:8-11 which have been taken to prohibit same-sex marriage. Anyone who cannot comprehend that these parables are conclusive evidence supporting same-sex marriage is an example of Christ’s statement that He spoke in parables because those who have the Spirit will understand, and those who do not understand do not, “. . . . because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” (Matthew 13:13) Anyone who does not comprehend this is stuck in legalism and self-righteousness.”

I expect an apology from Herb soon

Norm, I would like to inquire further into your expectation of an apology for these first two paragraphs. Please allow me to give some of the background. For example, your specific statement concerning seeing but not seeing and being stuck in legalism is the following, “’Seeing but not seeing’ as Jesus explained the reason for speaking in parables. It’s nonsense and beside the point for people stuck in a legalistic, self-righteous point of view.”
I trust that the wording I used in those first two paragraphs accurately reflect your wording. If not, please indicate how that is the case.
After I put together the webpage containing that material I sent a link to you for you to check out. I have worked very hard to give you every opportunity to write these statements. Those first two paragraphs I thought helped to further indicate where your thinking is. I sent you the link to this material two days before it was sent out to the larger groups of pastors. I also delayed sending the emails to pastors so that you would have two days, not one in order to check this out. That was also at a time when you are very active on email, so it was not at a time when you are away from your computer.
I have worked hard to properly communicate your position. Why do you think an apology would be appropriate at this time? Thank you.

Delete what I didn’t give you permission to post.
Is this hard, Herb? Or are you hoping to detract and deflect?

I did not write this… Herb did.

“THE PARABLES AND COMPASSION by Rev. Norman Prenger These five parables clearly teach that the church needs to have compassion and, consequently that the church needs to accept the practice of same-sex marriages. They will each be treated separately below. These five parables contain more scriptural evidence supporting the practice of same-sex marriage than the combined teaching of Leviticus 18 and 20, Romans 1, I Corinthians 6:9-10 and I Timothy 1:8-11 which have been taken to prohibit same-sex marriage. Anyone who cannot comprehend that these parables are conclusive evidence supporting same-sex marriage is an example of Christ’s statement that He spoke in parables because those who have the Spirit will understand, and those who do not understand do not, “. . . . because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” (Matthew 13:13) Anyone who does not comprehend this is stuck in legalism and self-righteousness.”

I expect an apology from Herb soon

Is this a duplication?

Those are Herb Kraker’s words, however I do believe there is a pearl of truth in that judgement. Did you try to listen carefully to what our Lord was saying in this parables? Or would you immediately get defensive and judgmental before actually paying attention to the points these stories are making?

Norm, for the sake of those people who might be really close spiritually to being able to see the meaning of these parables, could you state concisely what you see that meaning to be? I think that would greatly help in connection with these comments. Thank you.

If one can conclude that these 5 parables legitimizes homosexuality, then we can conclude, then, that these 5 parables also legitimizes murder, sexual abuse, child pornography, stealing, lying, etc. For example, can we conclude that it is OK to rob and beat another person, because someone will come along and care for that person and one can always forgive the Samaritan’s abusers??? Absolutely not!! Prenger is searching scriptures to legitimize his personal belief system and interprets them in his own HUMAN way. So dangerous! Nothing is to be added or taken away from the Scriptures and this is a good example on how something can be “added” to Scripture so as to distort the true words of Christ.

I did not write this… Herb did.

“THE PARABLES AND COMPASSION by Rev. Norman Prenger These five parables clearly teach that the church needs to have compassion and, consequently that the church needs to accept the practice of same-sex marriages. They will each be treated separately below. These five parables contain more scriptural evidence supporting the practice of same-sex marriage than the combined teaching of Leviticus 18 and 20, Romans 1, I Corinthians 6:9-10 and I Timothy 1:8-11 which have been taken to prohibit same-sex marriage. Anyone who cannot comprehend that these parables are conclusive evidence supporting same-sex marriage is an example of Christ’s statement that He spoke in parables because those who have the Spirit will understand, and those who do not understand do not, “. . . . because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” (Matthew 13:13) Anyone who does not comprehend this is stuck in legalism and self-righteousness.”

I expect an apology from Herb soon

See the reply to Norm’s comment to Don Recker’s post for further comment on this.

I did not write this… Herb did.

“THE PARABLES AND COMPASSION by Rev. Norman Prenger These five parables clearly teach that the church needs to have compassion and, consequently that the church needs to accept the practice of same-sex marriages. They will each be treated separately below. These five parables contain more scriptural evidence supporting the practice of same-sex marriage than the combined teaching of Leviticus 18 and 20, Romans 1, I Corinthians 6:9-10 and I Timothy 1:8-11 which have been taken to prohibit same-sex marriage. Anyone who cannot comprehend that these parables are conclusive evidence supporting same-sex marriage is an example of Christ’s statement that He spoke in parables because those who have the Spirit will understand, and those who do not understand do not, “. . . . because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” (Matthew 13:13) Anyone who does not comprehend this is stuck in legalism and self-righteousness.”

I expect an apology from Herb soon

Is this a duplication? See the reply to Norm’s comment to Don Recker’s post for further comment on this.

This is Herb Krakers’ intro to my parable treatments. I expect his apology soon. BTW.. these parables are not about legitimizing homosexual acts, but upholding compassion as emblem of a truly compassionate life according to Christ

“THE PARABLES AND COMPASSION by Rev. Norman Prenger These five parables clearly teach that the church needs to have compassion and, consequently that the church needs to accept the practice of same-sex marriages. They will each be treated separately below. These five parables contain more scriptural evidence supporting the practice of same-sex marriage than the combined teaching of Leviticus 18 and 20, Romans 1, I Corinthians 6:9-10 and I Timothy 1:8-11 which have been taken to prohibit same-sex marriage. Anyone who cannot comprehend that these parables are conclusive evidence supporting same-sex marriage is an example of Christ’s statement that He spoke in parables because those who have the Spirit will understand, and those who do not understand do not, “. . . . because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” (Matthew 13:13) Anyone who does not comprehend this is stuck in legalism and self-righteousness.”

If these parables are not about legitimizing homosexual acts, then are these parables focused on something different from the purpose of these pages on the Internet? As has been said several times, compassion is an important response that Christians must have. If these papers on the parables are not intended to deal with the question of whether such acts are right or wrong, should these papers be placed somewhere else?

No Herb… You posted those words as if they came from me… They didn’t. Putting your words in my mouth is not only impolite, but was intended to enflame this discussion. I gave you these five parables in interpretation with my own introduction. You affixed your own introduction and that slanted the discussion. It’s a crooked thing to misrepresent someone…

The parables do not “legitimize homosexual acts”… they simply demonstrate that compassion is the the hallmark of truly moral life in Christ. All sexually outside of marriage is forbidden unless it is practiced in the bonds of marriage. Inviting lonely homosexuals to enjoy marriage seems like a compassionate thing to do, don’t you think?
Besides… in the coming kingdom, marriage and child bearing will be a think of the past, as Our Lord showed us.

“Inviting lonely homosexuals to enjoy marriage . . .” gets at the very heart of the discussion at hand. The question before us is, are all same-sex erotic acts sinful? That has been the understanding of the church from its beginning. To invite lonely homosexuals to enjoy marriage cannot be the compassionate thing to do if it is in fact true that all who participate in homosexual acts will be excluded from the Kingdom of God (I Corinthians 6:9-10).

Same sex erotic acts, as envisioned in the Bible, are sinful because they are performed outside of marriage. The same thing is true for heterosexual acts envisioned in the Bible when they are performed out of marriage. You keep begging the question. No one is saying sex outside of marriage is righteous. At least, I am not. Yet you keep insisting on it.

God gave the whole world the common grace of marriage to keep people loyal and compassionate in their love. Marriage is the way selfish fleshy urges are transformed into a love shaped by all the fruits of the Spirit. And as the Apostle said, against such a love there is no law.
.
Therefore, following God’s common grace and compassion for all us sexual beings who can’t seem to control our fleshy urges, I advocate same sex marriage. It was not a topic or a solution for the ancient world, or the ancient Bible authors, but like many modern day solutions and institutions — like democracy, wholesome usury, a Presbyterian form of church government, or women pastors, it may indeed a sign of spiritual progress.

Your solution, however, is to shame and punish brothers and sisters to satisfy your need to appear righteous. Its not loving nor just.

I think it can be helpful at this juncture to clarify a point. When I use phrases such as “same-sex erotic acts” I use them in the broader sense of “are same-sex erotic acts ever acceptable in God’s sight?” Human language is finite, it is limited in its ability and cannot in a few words express everything about a given topic. I do not use the phrase “same-sex erotic acts” to state in a more narrowly focused manner that someone else claims same-sex erotic acts outside of marriage is righteous.

Norm, that is what I perceive you to be saying in the following quote:

“You keep begging the question. No one is saying sex outside of marriage is righteous. At least, I am not. Yet you keep insisting on it.”

A topic such as same-sex marriage is certainly multifaceted and all of the related considerations. In my mind, if a person seems to be coming across as making a particular claim, it can be very helpful to ask that person for clarification in order to be sure what that person means by their statements. I have had times in the past where another person understood my statements to mean something that I definitely had not intended to communicate. When I reviewed my statements I could see how they could possibly be understood that away, but that gave me the opportunity to further refine my statements and clarify what I was actually saying.

Quote: “Your solution, however, is to shame and punish brothers and sisters to satisfy your need to appear righteous.”

Norm, how do you see my solution being to shame and punish brothers and sisters and also that I am striving personally to appear righteous? What is that based on? 40 years ago I met with a person who was same-sex attracted. We met to look into the matter. It was never my intent to shame that person.

Norm, on what basis do you say, “Your solution, however, is to shame and punish brothers and sisters to satisfy your need to appear righteous. Its not loving nor just.” The only contact you and I have had is through these posts and emails. Yet, you state so definitely, no question about it, that I shame and punish other Christians in an unjust manner. Do you know of anyone perhaps who knows me and can back up your claim? Or are you just taking images of others and assuming your view of them is true for me, too? On what basis?

Your reply reminds me of how so many people thought Jesus was talking nonsense. These parables were told to underscore the ultimate value of compassion in the Christian. I suspect you have very little for folks who love Christ and would love to enjoy a partner to ward loneliness and develop fidelity and mutuality… things which are very important to life. You are welcome to email me directly, because there are things in your response which give me genuine concern for your spiritual welfare.

Norm, if you can help to add clarity to what spiritual welfare is with respect to same-sex marriage through good, solid exegesis, it would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

Very simple. Legalism, Pharisaism, the wish to punish and shame God’s children though they do not control or choose their sexual orientation, is just wrong. I suggest Paul’s letter to the Galatians as an antidote. These parables are the end of a long conversation I have had with you and my theological position has been spelled out quite thoroughly to you. You have not answered it yet. That makes me suspicious, of course, as to what your motived might be. So my last gift to you was a exegesis of these five parables. You still haven’t answered what Jesus is saying to us in them.

Concerning these five parables and your thought that I have not replied to them, it has been established (at least in my mind) that we are in agreement that Christians need to have compassion for those who deal with same-sex attraction. Beyond that, I have not replied further because as far as I can see the real question before us right now is very specifically the question of whether loving, monogamous, faithful marriage of two people of the same sex is ever acceptable to God. As far as I can see, these parables simply don’t go there. They do not speak to that question. To address that specific question, I think we need to do our exegetical homework on Leviticus 18 and 20, Romans 1, I Corinthians 6, I Timothy 1 as well as some others. As I have mentioned before, you and I could spend 100 hours each on these parables and I don’t think we would be any further along in the direction of answering the question of whether or not loving same-sex marriages are ever acceptable to God. If I am missing something in this regard and you can point out to me how further examination of these parables could yield good results in that direction, I would appreciate it.
Concerning these parables being the end of a long conversation and your theological position having been spelled out quite thoroughly, if your position has been spelled out thoroughly to the extent of being complete, then perhaps there is no further progress that we can make here. I would hope that would not be the case. This is a very important topic at this point in time before the church. Any contribution, regardless how small, that could be made on this topic would be good.

Jesus told these stories. Not me.
And judging from your reaction, you didn’t hear a word

MMmm… I see my responses are being erased. That’s the power of owning the site, I guess. Once again, the Introduction which uses the words, “stuck in legalism and self-righteousness” is Herbs and not mine. If he has a tiny bit of moral conscience on the 9th commandment, he will retract it with an apology. I suspect this was written to enflame readers and make it impossible to hear the parables correctly

No responses have been erased. There is a group here of about 18 comments made yesterday and today that have just now been approved. They would not have appeared prior to this approval. If you do not see a comment you made, please email me with the text or as closely as you can reconstruct it as possible and I will definitely check into it.
As replied to another comment, the wording “stuck in legalism and self-righteousness” is yours, Norm, not mine. Your exact statement was, “’Seeing but not seeing’ as Jesus explained the reason for speaking in parables. It’s nonsense and beside the point for people stuck in a legalistic, self-righteous point of view.”
Could you clarify more precisely please why you think that a moral conscience would call for a retraction with an apology? Thanks.

Because whatever I said to you in an email was not intended for publication. I do stand by these sentiments, but I wanted to do it gently through the parables… Parables are not a theological exposition or critique of the five anti-homo sex passages, and you know it. Compassion, not legalist arguments, was the subject. The email was a personal statement to you and I suspect you have nested it as if it was the whole message. Retract it because I asked you for it.

Herb… the moral thing to do would be to not post personal emails from me. You didn’t have my permission, unlike the parable which came with their own introduction. If I sensed that you were truly burdened by the sensible ethical request, I might have compassion for you. Its a simple thing, Herb. Do the right thing.

Parables by Christ to combat the endless legalism exemplified by the Pharisees and other “experts” on the law. They were intended to give insight for people who are earnestly seeking insight. “stuck in legalism and self-righteousness” was the context of those parables. And I think that is why its relevant to hear them for us legalists today in this issue.

Once again, you are missing the point. Delete what you have admittedly manipulated and posted without my permission.
Thank you. I don’t disagree with the two phrases I used. They are correct and scriptural. But your manipulation of the argument is why I should never have trusted you.

Herb… the moral thing to do would be to not post personal emails from me. You didn’t have my permission, unlike the parable which came with their own introduction. If I sensed that you were truly burdened by the sensible ethical request, I might have compassion for you. Its a simple thing, Herb. Do the right thing.

Parables by Christ to combat the endless legalism exemplified by the Pharisees and other “experts” on the law. They were intended to give insight for people who are earnestly seeking insight. “stuck in legalism and self-righteousness” was the context of those parables. And I think that is why its relevant to hear them for us legalists today in this issue.

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